Is the site over-moderated? May 4, 2006 12:39 PM Subscribe
Good thread -- but be careful....it might get pulled.
When people are scared that AskMe threads they like might just be disappeared, perhaps it might be time to consider whether the site is being over-moderated?
When people are scared that AskMe threads they like might just be disappeared, perhaps it might be time to consider whether the site is being over-moderated?
An increase in threads that break the generally accepted guidelines does not mean that the site is being over-moderated. It would seem to indicate that the site is consistently moderated.
And besides, it's still there.
posted by GuyZero at 12:42 PM on May 4, 2006
And besides, it's still there.
posted by GuyZero at 12:42 PM on May 4, 2006
Perhaps it's time to consider if the question was really appropriate. "What is happiness" is kinda chatty, doncha think?
This is nothing on fff, of course. I just got diagnosed with depression, and I've pondered exactly the same thing; I only wish the best for them.
posted by boo_radley at 12:46 PM on May 4, 2006
This is nothing on fff, of course. I just got diagnosed with depression, and I've pondered exactly the same thing; I only wish the best for them.
posted by boo_radley at 12:46 PM on May 4, 2006
This site is not being overmoderated. If anything, it is undermoderated. You're one example of someone saying that and your ominous warning that people are cowering from fear a thread they like will be deleted doesn't make it true that there is a new problem that hasn't been discussed a thousand times already.
posted by Falconetti at 12:47 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by Falconetti at 12:47 PM on May 4, 2006
reklaw, skepticallypleased is just sore because his chatfilter got deleted a couple of days ago.
posted by agropyron at 12:48 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by agropyron at 12:48 PM on May 4, 2006
1. I think FFF is basically asking for the definition of happiness, and how one knows when one has it. Which seems difficult to ascertain in contrast to the unquestionable onset of depression.
2. The quote linked by reklaw is from someone else who just recently had a mealy-mouthed survey question deleted and apparently hasn't gotten over it yet. Kind of a biased sample there. Or, what agropyron said.
posted by LionIndex at 12:49 PM on May 4, 2006
2. The quote linked by reklaw is from someone else who just recently had a mealy-mouthed survey question deleted and apparently hasn't gotten over it yet. Kind of a biased sample there. Or, what agropyron said.
posted by LionIndex at 12:49 PM on May 4, 2006
And fff's question has a stated purpose, and a "best answer" would be a good description of how a happy person's mind feels. A poor answer would be "Happiness is a warm gun".
posted by agropyron at 12:49 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by agropyron at 12:49 PM on May 4, 2006
I doubt it will be deleted. It's really a narrower question than "what is happiness": How can I better identify the state of my brain and take care of myself before things get to a bad point? This seems well within the realm of acceptable self-help AskMe questions.
In any event, accusations of overmoderation should be made, if at all, only when posts are in fact deleted.
posted by brain_drain at 12:50 PM on May 4, 2006
In any event, accusations of overmoderation should be made, if at all, only when posts are in fact deleted.
posted by brain_drain at 12:50 PM on May 4, 2006
It just feels a lot like there's a kind of 'atmosphere' developing... a climate of fear where no-one's quite sure what's acceptable, what will or won't get deleted... and so all they can do is cross their fingers and hope it's not the thing that they liked.
Each time I see a thread and think "that's going to get deleted, shame", it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. It's not so much about what breaks the guidelines and what has and hasn't been deleted as it is about the culture of half-random deletions making people feel scared of them.
posted by reklaw at 12:52 PM on May 4, 2006
Each time I see a thread and think "that's going to get deleted, shame", it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. It's not so much about what breaks the guidelines and what has and hasn't been deleted as it is about the culture of half-random deletions making people feel scared of them.
posted by reklaw at 12:52 PM on May 4, 2006
reklaw, we're talking about one comment by one user that had something deleted recently. Don't you think it might be too early to think the tone of the site has changed?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:54 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:54 PM on May 4, 2006
I was just going to say "Look, they even left the bubble thread up", but I guess that's gone now.
posted by agropyron at 12:55 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by agropyron at 12:55 PM on May 4, 2006
Yeah, I get you -- I cited a bad example. But I still think people are more afraid of stuff getting deleted than they used to be. I guess no-one feels like backing me up here?
posted by reklaw at 12:56 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by reklaw at 12:56 PM on May 4, 2006
I'm with recklaw; individual posts and whole threads disappearing is disturbing to me. Then I start thinking, hey, who can I bribe to take some of my stupider remarks down? In five years around here I've certainly gotten my back up and typed a lot of things I wish I hadn't, posted asinine single link posts on the front page before I figured out what the place was all about, etc. etc. However, I hate going back to check on the progress of the snark in a stupid thread and finding it gone. Even when the thread was dumb, I don't like when it gets pulled. I hate reading a thread and seeing all the responses to a comment that's no longer there. I don't think the disconnect is worth it; but I'm not making the decisions. And I can't even point to any examples - because they're gone.
I guess I understand the perceived need to moderate, but I have to confess, I don't actually like it. Sometimes great threads follow a crappy fpp. Sometimes real understanding comes after a nasty flamewar. But sometimes it doesn't.
I have no answers, but I will say that I came to MeTa for this exact issue and saw a post already up, so I decided to say my piece here, although I suspect the issue has already been decided - and now I think there's a good chance this thread will get pulled.
posted by jennaratrix at 12:57 PM on May 4, 2006
I guess I understand the perceived need to moderate, but I have to confess, I don't actually like it. Sometimes great threads follow a crappy fpp. Sometimes real understanding comes after a nasty flamewar. But sometimes it doesn't.
I have no answers, but I will say that I came to MeTa for this exact issue and saw a post already up, so I decided to say my piece here, although I suspect the issue has already been decided - and now I think there's a good chance this thread will get pulled.
posted by jennaratrix at 12:57 PM on May 4, 2006
Well, there you go -- the bubble thread is a good example. I liked it just fine. Many people liked it. Falconetti even said "Please don't delete this thread! I laughed out loud multiple times". Yet still it got deleted. It feels like this kind of thing is happening with increasing regularity.
posted by reklaw at 12:58 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by reklaw at 12:58 PM on May 4, 2006
An angel gets its wings every time a thread is deleted. I hated the bubble thread. Look, if you feel "scared" about information control on MeFi of all places you need to spend a few moments dwelling in the septic tank of internet forums. You'll come crawling back, gasping for breath.
posted by prostyle at 1:02 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by prostyle at 1:02 PM on May 4, 2006
However, I hate going back to check on the progress of the snark in a stupid thread and finding it gone.
This is something to be gotten over. Feel mild, wistful disappointment if you need to, but feeling that the above characterizes a problem with the site is like feeling that too many reality shows are getting cancelled midseason.
posted by cortex at 1:03 PM on May 4, 2006
This is something to be gotten over. Feel mild, wistful disappointment if you need to, but feeling that the above characterizes a problem with the site is like feeling that too many reality shows are getting cancelled midseason.
posted by cortex at 1:03 PM on May 4, 2006
I know a guy who truly believe happiness is a warm gun. He loves to shoot, what can I say?
posted by Roger Dodger at 1:07 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by Roger Dodger at 1:07 PM on May 4, 2006
I'm sorry cortex - are you actually telling me how to feel?
I didn't say anything should be done, or that it transferred to thinking something was wrong with the site; I simply stated my feelings. And I do get over it; in the large scheme of things, it's not terribly important. I was expressing my opinion in the exact proper place to do so.
And now I'm going to check out the septic tank of internet forums so I can truly appreciate MeFi. ~major eye roll~
posted by jennaratrix at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2006
I didn't say anything should be done, or that it transferred to thinking something was wrong with the site; I simply stated my feelings. And I do get over it; in the large scheme of things, it's not terribly important. I was expressing my opinion in the exact proper place to do so.
And now I'm going to check out the septic tank of internet forums so I can truly appreciate MeFi. ~major eye roll~
posted by jennaratrix at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2006
I hated the bubble thread
So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate. Deleting things only serves to satisfy the haters -- and as each thing gets deleted, they just focus their hate on something that used to bother them less.
Before you know where you are, almost everything is getting heaped with scorn for the silliest of reasons and everyone's scared to post a damn thing (witness people's pre-emptive responses recently to the inevitable pointless meta-criticism they know their posts will attract).
you need to spend a few moments dwelling in the septic tank of internet forums. You'll come crawling back, gasping for breath.
On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem. Well, that and general illiteracy, but you can't fix that.
posted by reklaw at 1:15 PM on May 4, 2006
So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate. Deleting things only serves to satisfy the haters -- and as each thing gets deleted, they just focus their hate on something that used to bother them less.
Before you know where you are, almost everything is getting heaped with scorn for the silliest of reasons and everyone's scared to post a damn thing (witness people's pre-emptive responses recently to the inevitable pointless meta-criticism they know their posts will attract).
you need to spend a few moments dwelling in the septic tank of internet forums. You'll come crawling back, gasping for breath.
On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem. Well, that and general illiteracy, but you can't fix that.
posted by reklaw at 1:15 PM on May 4, 2006
It's either a sign that the users are undermoderating themselves, or that the guidelines are not clear enough to allow users to censor themselves appropriately (i.e. diverting to MetaChat). Or it could be a sign that the moderation is inconsistent, but I think we've been over that a hundred times, and anything more (without a significant constructive suggestion) is just AxeGrindFilter (yes, it comes in non-political flavors).
One user defines the question as "good," but that's a very subjective evaluation. Good for AskMe is, to an extent, what Jess and Matt say it is. The alternative is to start your own site, or offer a helpful suggestion. Without constructive criticism, this is a lame callout.
posted by Eideteker at 1:15 PM on May 4, 2006
One user defines the question as "good," but that's a very subjective evaluation. Good for AskMe is, to an extent, what Jess and Matt say it is. The alternative is to start your own site, or offer a helpful suggestion. Without constructive criticism, this is a lame callout.
posted by Eideteker at 1:15 PM on May 4, 2006
individual posts and whole threads disappearing is disturbing to me.
Funny, I have dozens of users saying the opposite and demanding much more.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2006
Funny, I have dozens of users saying the opposite and demanding much more.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:19 PM on May 4, 2006
"On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem."
And the Godwin award goes to...
We have a Brand New Day poster of maothowie... can we have a mathitler? Play up the way he enforces his autocracy from on board his recumbent bike; his mobile justice platform which we shall re-christen Crusher of Dreams. And Jessamyn can be Himmler or Goebbels or something, and since she's from snowy Vermont, she can have a sleigh or something, which we shall call Slayer of Happiness.
Get it?
posted by Eideteker at 1:20 PM on May 4, 2006
And the Godwin award goes to...
We have a Brand New Day poster of maothowie... can we have a mathitler? Play up the way he enforces his autocracy from on board his recumbent bike; his mobile justice platform which we shall re-christen Crusher of Dreams. And Jessamyn can be Himmler or Goebbels or something, and since she's from snowy Vermont, she can have a sleigh or something, which we shall call Slayer of Happiness.
Get it?
posted by Eideteker at 1:20 PM on May 4, 2006
So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate.
Is there a "Back Page Post" section I am not aware of that could condense these links in one single place and maximize my intake of Hater-ade? Did you ever think that maybe I don't actively seek out things to dissaprove of?
The problem here isn't pro or anti-deletion; the problem is a sweeping generalization worded with incredibly vague, emotionally charged language. Weaksauce.
posted by prostyle at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2006
Is there a "Back Page Post" section I am not aware of that could condense these links in one single place and maximize my intake of Hater-ade? Did you ever think that maybe I don't actively seek out things to dissaprove of?
The problem here isn't pro or anti-deletion; the problem is a sweeping generalization worded with incredibly vague, emotionally charged language. Weaksauce.
posted by prostyle at 1:22 PM on May 4, 2006
I'll say it again, I'm fine with AskMe being way more moderated. I think it's distinctly different than the other areas - in fact quite diametrically to the gray - and I am fairly annoyed to see the personalities I skip the blue in order to avoid coming to the green to make unfunny, unhelpful, out of place comments.
ChatFilter is easier to skip, and in fact I do kind of like the direction this thread is/was going, but once a given thread starts to get chatty (regardless of the premise) or offbeat it's hard to read between the posts.
posted by kcm at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2006
ChatFilter is easier to skip, and in fact I do kind of like the direction this thread is/was going, but once a given thread starts to get chatty (regardless of the premise) or offbeat it's hard to read between the posts.
posted by kcm at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2006
matt, i reckon most of the people who are pro-deletion just can't handle dissent. fwiw.
(as an aside, for those of you who have never gone target shooting, happiness IS a warm gun.)
posted by keswick at 1:25 PM on May 4, 2006
(as an aside, for those of you who have never gone target shooting, happiness IS a warm gun.)
posted by keswick at 1:25 PM on May 4, 2006
The metafilter,
For some fails to sooth all fears
Seek desires elsewhere
posted by edgeways at 1:25 PM on May 4, 2006
For some fails to sooth all fears
Seek desires elsewhere
posted by edgeways at 1:25 PM on May 4, 2006
You'll never please everyone, Matt.
posted by crunchland at 1:28 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by crunchland at 1:28 PM on May 4, 2006
I'm sorry cortex - are you actually telling me how to feel?
Not really. Apologies if that came off more prescriptive and less anecdotal than intended—I was, as much as anything, referencing my own journey down that path of enlightment. As it were. These days I think of stupid, deletable threads as guilty pleasures—I enjoy them while they last, but shed no tears when they rightly disappear in the aether (or into the back room whence I can summon them with a greasemonkey script or a firefox bookmarklet).
And now I'm going to check out the septic tank of internet forums so I can truly appreciate MeFi. ~major eye roll~
In all seriousness, the bar for net forums in general hangs appallingly low. Mefi is a shockingly readable and well-managed site; the idea that the moderation (and the resulting discussion) here compares poorly to 99% of what's out there is boggling to me.
posted by cortex at 1:28 PM on May 4, 2006
Not really. Apologies if that came off more prescriptive and less anecdotal than intended—I was, as much as anything, referencing my own journey down that path of enlightment. As it were. These days I think of stupid, deletable threads as guilty pleasures—I enjoy them while they last, but shed no tears when they rightly disappear in the aether (or into the back room whence I can summon them with a greasemonkey script or a firefox bookmarklet).
And now I'm going to check out the septic tank of internet forums so I can truly appreciate MeFi. ~major eye roll~
In all seriousness, the bar for net forums in general hangs appallingly low. Mefi is a shockingly readable and well-managed site; the idea that the moderation (and the resulting discussion) here compares poorly to 99% of what's out there is boggling to me.
posted by cortex at 1:28 PM on May 4, 2006
omg teh fascism is on teh march
posted by keswick at 12:54 PM PST on May 4
The "teh" jokes are over, I think, but don't let me be the one to tell you, I'm not Mr. Mother Fucking Zeitgeist!
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:29 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by keswick at 12:54 PM PST on May 4
The "teh" jokes are over, I think, but don't let me be the one to tell you, I'm not Mr. Mother Fucking Zeitgeist!
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:29 PM on May 4, 2006
they're back again. they're kinda like teh "play freebird!" of teh intarwebs.
posted by keswick at 1:30 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by keswick at 1:30 PM on May 4, 2006
And now I'm going to check out the septic tank of internet forums so I can truly appreciate MeFi. ~major eye roll~
Yeah, like cortex, I don't understand the sarcasm. Stated differently, I was with you right up to the ~eye roll~
posted by pardonyou? at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2006
Yeah, like cortex, I don't understand the sarcasm. Stated differently, I was with you right up to the ~eye roll~
posted by pardonyou? at 1:35 PM on May 4, 2006
the sky is falling! the sky is falling!
posted by crunchland at 1:40 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by crunchland at 1:40 PM on May 4, 2006
MetaFilter needs fewer deletions, not more.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:43 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:43 PM on May 4, 2006
a climate of fear where no-one's quite sure what's acceptable, what will or won't get deleted...
A climate of fear? A climate of fear !? The hell...
On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem...
Oh my god, please turn off your computer and re-think your priorities...
posted by SweetJesus at 1:45 PM on May 4, 2006
A climate of fear? A climate of fear !? The hell...
On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem...
Oh my god, please turn off your computer and re-think your priorities...
posted by SweetJesus at 1:45 PM on May 4, 2006
I reckon most of the people who are anti-deletion are communists.
posted by smackfu at 1:46 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by smackfu at 1:46 PM on May 4, 2006
now, i ain't necessarily a communist, but i've been in the red all my life...
posted by keswick at 1:47 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by keswick at 1:47 PM on May 4, 2006
For the millionth time, stop all the hyperbole or I'm going to kill someone.
posted by brain_drain at 1:50 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by brain_drain at 1:50 PM on May 4, 2006
man, I didn't empathize with, but DID sympathize with reklaw's position at the beginning of this thread. i don't agree with him, but I could see why he'd feel that way and I felt bad for him. then came the condescension and jennaratrix's eyerolls and the nazi reference and now I'm thinking, "whatever. you guys are just way too into yourselves." with all of the screaming shitfests that don't get deleted around here, you missing out on crappy threads that DO get deleted really isn't the problem with the site.
posted by shmegegge at 1:51 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by shmegegge at 1:51 PM on May 4, 2006
Well, I'm glad everyone's done such a good job of not addressing the point. Apparently no-one thinks it's destructive if upon posting something or seeing something they like people are thinking "maybe this will get deleted..."
Deletion has stopped being just for crap and started being used on stuff that most people think is just fine, or even happpen to like. The problem is that the people who want everything they don't like to be stamped out make a lot more noise than the ones who just want to leave stuff alone.
Of course, posting about it in MetaTalk just draws that very vocal minority out of the woodwork, as I should have realised.
Oh, and the Nazi thing was about the general mass of crappy internet phpBB/UBB/whatever forums, not here, so I don't see why everyone jumped on me for that. They have an overwhelming tendency to have little Hitlers for admins.
posted by reklaw at 1:59 PM on May 4, 2006
Deletion has stopped being just for crap and started being used on stuff that most people think is just fine, or even happpen to like. The problem is that the people who want everything they don't like to be stamped out make a lot more noise than the ones who just want to leave stuff alone.
Of course, posting about it in MetaTalk just draws that very vocal minority out of the woodwork, as I should have realised.
Oh, and the Nazi thing was about the general mass of crappy internet phpBB/UBB/whatever forums, not here, so I don't see why everyone jumped on me for that. They have an overwhelming tendency to have little Hitlers for admins.
posted by reklaw at 1:59 PM on May 4, 2006
Hatred has hunger and hatred has eyes,
Hatred has purpose and hatred has size,
Hatred has honor but hatred hates lies!
Hatred has dignity, hatred is clear,
Hatred has courage and hatred is dear,
Hatred has virtue and hatred is here!
Moles vs. chubbs, man, it always comes down to moles vs. chubbs...
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:04 PM on May 4, 2006
Hatred has purpose and hatred has size,
Hatred has honor but hatred hates lies!
Hatred has dignity, hatred is clear,
Hatred has courage and hatred is dear,
Hatred has virtue and hatred is here!
Moles vs. chubbs, man, it always comes down to moles vs. chubbs...
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 2:04 PM on May 4, 2006
Why is it so hard for you to grasp that I (or anyone else) can like something and simultaneously think it detracts from the purpose of the site? It's not black magic or anything. I like some of the chatfilter questions, but I still know they're going to go. And I have no problem with that, because that's not what AskMe is about. Knowing a thread will soon be deleted doesn't create a stain on my soul or fill me with existential angst and fear of my own mortality. Get a grip, man.
posted by LionIndex at 2:05 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by LionIndex at 2:05 PM on May 4, 2006
Well, I'm glad everyone's done such a good job of not addressing the point. Apparently no-one thinks it's destructive if upon posting something or seeing something they like people are thinking "maybe this will get deleted..."
Bingo!
Of course, posting about it in MetaTalk just draws that very vocal minority out of the woodwork, as I should have realized.
You're in the vocal minority. Most users don't care so strongly about internal garbage collection policy...
posted by SweetJesus at 2:06 PM on May 4, 2006
Bingo!
Of course, posting about it in MetaTalk just draws that very vocal minority out of the woodwork, as I should have realized.
You're in the vocal minority. Most users don't care so strongly about internal garbage collection policy...
posted by SweetJesus at 2:06 PM on May 4, 2006
Apparently no-one thinks it's destructive if upon posting something or seeing something they like people are thinking "maybe this will get deleted..."
Well, I don't, anyway. Anybody who knowingly posts something that expect will be deleted should ask themselves why they're posting it, and why they think it'll be deleted, and go from there. They'll post it or they won't.
I personally don't believe that their is any widespread culture of fear. Deletion of something posted to Metafilter is not something that should merit fear. Folks use their judgement based on their goals and their knowledge of the site, and that's that.
If they post something, and it's deleted, and they believe the deletion was in fact wrong, they can email matt or jessamyn. They can start a metatalk thread, too. Often they do; results are mixed, from hotly debated deletions (and the occasional ressurrection) to roundly condemned whinefests from users who should never have posted their deleted post/comment in the first place, let alone called out the deletion.
Seems to work okay.
Oh, and the Nazi thing was about the general mass of crappy internet phpBB/UBB/whatever forums, not here, so I don't see why everyone jumped on me for that.
I didn't get all of the nazi-prompted responses either, but the ones I did get seemed to be making light of the comparison of anything net-forum related to naziism. Which might be a bit much to protest, considering how dear nazis are to internet rhetoric, but, hey, whaddaya do.
posted by cortex at 2:07 PM on May 4, 2006
Well, I don't, anyway. Anybody who knowingly posts something that expect will be deleted should ask themselves why they're posting it, and why they think it'll be deleted, and go from there. They'll post it or they won't.
I personally don't believe that their is any widespread culture of fear. Deletion of something posted to Metafilter is not something that should merit fear. Folks use their judgement based on their goals and their knowledge of the site, and that's that.
If they post something, and it's deleted, and they believe the deletion was in fact wrong, they can email matt or jessamyn. They can start a metatalk thread, too. Often they do; results are mixed, from hotly debated deletions (and the occasional ressurrection) to roundly condemned whinefests from users who should never have posted their deleted post/comment in the first place, let alone called out the deletion.
Seems to work okay.
Oh, and the Nazi thing was about the general mass of crappy internet phpBB/UBB/whatever forums, not here, so I don't see why everyone jumped on me for that.
I didn't get all of the nazi-prompted responses either, but the ones I did get seemed to be making light of the comparison of anything net-forum related to naziism. Which might be a bit much to protest, considering how dear nazis are to internet rhetoric, but, hey, whaddaya do.
posted by cortex at 2:07 PM on May 4, 2006
I didn't get all of the nazi-prompted responses either, but the ones I did get seemed to be making light of the comparison of anything net-forum related to naziism.
Comparing the deletion of a thread on some website to acts of a Nazi does not an argument win. In fact, it just waters down your original argument and makes you look unstable. Let's save the Nazi comparisons for people who kick puppies, or steal candy from children...
posted by SweetJesus at 2:12 PM on May 4, 2006
Comparing the deletion of a thread on some website to acts of a Nazi does not an argument win. In fact, it just waters down your original argument and makes you look unstable. Let's save the Nazi comparisons for people who kick puppies, or steal candy from children...
posted by SweetJesus at 2:12 PM on May 4, 2006
Well, I'm glad everyone's done such a good job of not addressing the point.
oh yeah, gimme more of that self-righteous indignation! fuck yeah!
man, you need to go read back over the recent MeTa posts, again. there have been a LOT of people clamoring for deletion or official prohibition against [user x] or [pet peeve y] and it's almost always met with people telling them that that would be overmoderation. if you really think there's some pervasive squeaky wheel syndrome that goes unadressed here, then your view of the site is either woefully uninformed or simply delusional.
posted by shmegegge at 2:14 PM on May 4, 2006
oh yeah, gimme more of that self-righteous indignation! fuck yeah!
man, you need to go read back over the recent MeTa posts, again. there have been a LOT of people clamoring for deletion or official prohibition against [user x] or [pet peeve y] and it's almost always met with people telling them that that would be overmoderation. if you really think there's some pervasive squeaky wheel syndrome that goes unadressed here, then your view of the site is either woefully uninformed or simply delusional.
posted by shmegegge at 2:14 PM on May 4, 2006
My feeling is that the example reklaw points to is the exception rather than the rule (based on what everyone else has said about that poster's question being deleted and them having a hard time grappling with that fact), a large number of people hated the bubble thread according to the flag queue, and having a fresh influx of new users [or novice users who haven't posted much] means that there will be people all the time who don't quite have the feel of the site yet.
The faq will help that and more consistent moderation -- which we strive towards, but we aren't and won't be perfect at -- will help that. This is especially true on AskMe where there are certain types of questions that people like to ask/answer but aren't really what the site it set up for. We try really hard, in the faq and in MeTa, to explain the differences between, for example, chatfilter questions and "I have a problem to solve" questions but some people either don't get the distinction or don't like it. fff's question was perfectly reasonable and skepticallypleased is being perhaps a bit mopey. I don't see a culture of fear here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:16 PM on May 4, 2006
The faq will help that and more consistent moderation -- which we strive towards, but we aren't and won't be perfect at -- will help that. This is especially true on AskMe where there are certain types of questions that people like to ask/answer but aren't really what the site it set up for. We try really hard, in the faq and in MeTa, to explain the differences between, for example, chatfilter questions and "I have a problem to solve" questions but some people either don't get the distinction or don't like it. fff's question was perfectly reasonable and skepticallypleased is being perhaps a bit mopey. I don't see a culture of fear here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:16 PM on May 4, 2006
omg teh fascism is on teh march
posted by keswick at 12:54 PM PST on May 4
The "teh" jokes are over, I think, but don't let me be the one to tell you, I'm not Mr. Mother Fucking Zeitgeist!
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:29 PM PST on May 4 [!]
they're back again. they're kinda like teh "play freebird!" of teh intarwebs.
posted by keswick at 1:30 PM PST on May 4 [!]
Yeah. I know the guy who invented the "teh". He says you're all ass biters.
posted by loquacious at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by keswick at 12:54 PM PST on May 4
The "teh" jokes are over, I think, but don't let me be the one to tell you, I'm not Mr. Mother Fucking Zeitgeist!
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 1:29 PM PST on May 4 [!]
they're back again. they're kinda like teh "play freebird!" of teh intarwebs.
posted by keswick at 1:30 PM PST on May 4 [!]
Yeah. I know the guy who invented the "teh". He says you're all ass biters.
posted by loquacious at 2:17 PM on May 4, 2006
a large number of people hated the bubble thread according to the flag queue
Well, that's the point I'm trying to make. What is "a lot"? The people who flag the stuff they don't like have a disproportionate amount of influence. There's no way to flag something "I didn't think this was the best thing ever, but I don't want it to be deleted".
posted by reklaw at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2006
Well, that's the point I'm trying to make. What is "a lot"? The people who flag the stuff they don't like have a disproportionate amount of influence. There's no way to flag something "I didn't think this was the best thing ever, but I don't want it to be deleted".
posted by reklaw at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2006
A point worth making: as the site has grown, the fraction of total site activity that any one user can reasonably survey has decreased—and so it's entirely possible for two different users, even of like disposition and attitudes toward moderation, to have to different views of the the site, and accordingly different feelings.
It shouldn't be surprising that reasonable people disagree about these things, especially when you consider that different folks also have different fundamental priorities in how they think about the site.
Maybe it's a dirt obvious observation, but it seems to me that a lot of the snark and acrimony in these threads can be traced to folks not keeping that in mind.
posted by cortex at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2006
It shouldn't be surprising that reasonable people disagree about these things, especially when you consider that different folks also have different fundamental priorities in how they think about the site.
Maybe it's a dirt obvious observation, but it seems to me that a lot of the snark and acrimony in these threads can be traced to folks not keeping that in mind.
posted by cortex at 2:21 PM on May 4, 2006
"Many people liked it. Falconetti even said "Please don't delete this thread! I laughed out loud multiple times". Yet still it got deleted. It feels like this kind of thing is happening with increasing regularity."
Falconetti was wrong. The link sucked. And wanting to rip on something in a public forum (his stated reason for enjoying it) != FPP material, though it can be a part of it.
"So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate. Deleting things only serves to satisfy the haters -- and as each thing gets deleted, they just focus their hate on something that used to bother them less."
Jesus, Nancy, don't you have to go tend your unicorn? Even those of us who seek out things to like occassionally come across some bullshit that deserves a rebuke. The adle-pated sewing sisters who only want love for all of their bullshit kitten links are over on MoFi. If you run over there right now, you might be quick enough to catch a hug from one of them.
"On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem. Well, that and general illiteracy, but you can't fix that."
You know who else deleted bullshit flickr threads about bubbles? Hitler. Right after he packed the Jews into boxcars. NEVAR AGAIN!!!111one!
posted by klangklangston at 2:32 PM on May 4, 2006
Falconetti was wrong. The link sucked. And wanting to rip on something in a public forum (his stated reason for enjoying it) != FPP material, though it can be a part of it.
"So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate. Deleting things only serves to satisfy the haters -- and as each thing gets deleted, they just focus their hate on something that used to bother them less."
Jesus, Nancy, don't you have to go tend your unicorn? Even those of us who seek out things to like occassionally come across some bullshit that deserves a rebuke. The adle-pated sewing sisters who only want love for all of their bullshit kitten links are over on MoFi. If you run over there right now, you might be quick enough to catch a hug from one of them.
"On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem. Well, that and general illiteracy, but you can't fix that."
You know who else deleted bullshit flickr threads about bubbles? Hitler. Right after he packed the Jews into boxcars. NEVAR AGAIN!!!111one!
posted by klangklangston at 2:32 PM on May 4, 2006
There's no way to flag something "I didn't think this was the best thing ever, but I don't want it to be deleted".
Just flag it Fantastic Post. They'll get the idea.
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:45 PM on May 4, 2006
Just flag it Fantastic Post. They'll get the idea.
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:45 PM on May 4, 2006
"Oh, and the Nazi thing was about the general mass of crappy internet phpBB/UBB/whatever forums, not here, so I don't see why everyone jumped on me for that."
I won't presume to speak for everyone, but you seemed to be indicating that we were moving towards that situation here by saying that excessive moderation is often done by Nazi-mods, and that MeFi was being moderated by excess. Don't read too much into my reply, though. It's not like I think you're a horrible person or anything. I just wanted to see 10 different photoshops of Matt with a little pushbroom moustache and so seized on the opportunity.
'Well, that's the point I'm trying to make. What is "a lot"? The people who flag the stuff they don't like have a disproportionate amount of influence. There's no way to flag something "I didn't think this was the best thing ever, but I don't want it to be deleted".'
This is the type of valid constructive criticism I was looking for. While this is not valid on AskMe (I'm sorry, but popular does not make a good question, but I think you know that; not trying to talk down to you, just being explicit), it makes great sense on the Blue. I thought Matt was going to move towards a yea or nay voting system (I can't find Matt's own comment in another thread, so sorry for the self-link). Because you can thumbs up something as "I enjoyed this" without it being "fantastic" or "best post ever." I think you'd get a more comprehensive picture of the general reaction to the post (even if the 'votes' were invisible to non-mods to prevent vendetta voting or "save this post" movements). For comments rather than FPPs, I think just a [+/-] to replace/supplant the [!] would be very good, but the votes would HAVE to be invisible. Because god, egos. Back to FPPs, though: I don't think it would save the bubble thread or should save AxeGrindFilter, but it would reduce the grey areas surrounding deletion. Especially if the vote totals leading up to the deletion were published automatically in the delete line (when voting is then therefore closed):
This FPP was deleted for the following reason: You suck, Eideteker. 5 yays / 93 people's grandmothers were killed by this thread (in other words, nays)
Something like that. Great/fantastic posts? Would be the one with thousands of + votes rather than just a handful. Or whatever the actual averages once this is in place reflect as an outlier.
posted by Eideteker at 2:48 PM on May 4, 2006
I won't presume to speak for everyone, but you seemed to be indicating that we were moving towards that situation here by saying that excessive moderation is often done by Nazi-mods, and that MeFi was being moderated by excess. Don't read too much into my reply, though. It's not like I think you're a horrible person or anything. I just wanted to see 10 different photoshops of Matt with a little pushbroom moustache and so seized on the opportunity.
'Well, that's the point I'm trying to make. What is "a lot"? The people who flag the stuff they don't like have a disproportionate amount of influence. There's no way to flag something "I didn't think this was the best thing ever, but I don't want it to be deleted".'
This is the type of valid constructive criticism I was looking for. While this is not valid on AskMe (I'm sorry, but popular does not make a good question, but I think you know that; not trying to talk down to you, just being explicit), it makes great sense on the Blue. I thought Matt was going to move towards a yea or nay voting system (I can't find Matt's own comment in another thread, so sorry for the self-link). Because you can thumbs up something as "I enjoyed this" without it being "fantastic" or "best post ever." I think you'd get a more comprehensive picture of the general reaction to the post (even if the 'votes' were invisible to non-mods to prevent vendetta voting or "save this post" movements). For comments rather than FPPs, I think just a [+/-] to replace/supplant the [!] would be very good, but the votes would HAVE to be invisible. Because god, egos. Back to FPPs, though: I don't think it would save the bubble thread or should save AxeGrindFilter, but it would reduce the grey areas surrounding deletion. Especially if the vote totals leading up to the deletion were published automatically in the delete line (when voting is then therefore closed):
This FPP was deleted for the following reason: You suck, Eideteker. 5 yays / 93 people's grandmothers were killed by this thread (in other words, nays)
Something like that. Great/fantastic posts? Would be the one with thousands of + votes rather than just a handful. Or whatever the actual averages once this is in place reflect as an outlier.
posted by Eideteker at 2:48 PM on May 4, 2006
moderated TO excess. You know that I previewed that comment no less than ten times, right?
posted by Eideteker at 2:49 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by Eideteker at 2:49 PM on May 4, 2006
moderated TO excess
All else aside, we've at least generated a quality oxymoron.
posted by cortex at 2:57 PM on May 4, 2006
All else aside, we've at least generated a quality oxymoron.
posted by cortex at 2:57 PM on May 4, 2006
Vote totals should never be made public. Pretty soon you'd have people trying to game the system and bragging about how good their posts are or what bad boys they are. Besides I prefer deletion messages such as:
This post was deleted for the following reason: you spent the day irritating everyone so you could be more Meta than Meta by linking to your own thread.
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:58 PM on May 4, 2006
This post was deleted for the following reason: you spent the day irritating everyone so you could be more Meta than Meta by linking to your own thread.
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:58 PM on May 4, 2006
I still thought it was funny, by the way.
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:59 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by Roger Dodger at 2:59 PM on May 4, 2006
Crunchland wrote, "You'll never please everyone, Matt." Well, I think this is an incredible idea for some sort of charitable fundraiser. Put up an auction on e-bay, and Matt pleases the winner for a day. Don't like a thread? Gone. Change the blue to puce for a day? Done. You name it.
posted by boo_radley at 3:00 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by boo_radley at 3:00 PM on May 4, 2006
On most forums, the Nazi-like moderation is actually the problem.
WTF? Did someone change the definition of "most" and I just never heard?
posted by desuetude at 3:03 PM on May 4, 2006
WTF? Did someone change the definition of "most" and I just never heard?
posted by desuetude at 3:03 PM on May 4, 2006
i love boo_radley's idea. i could never pay enough to win the auction, but it would be a fun as hell day on the blue/puce, either way.
posted by shmegegge at 3:05 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by shmegegge at 3:05 PM on May 4, 2006
Or we could just start up a game of payola gunboat.
Seriously. Who wants to GM?
posted by cortex at 3:15 PM on May 4, 2006
Seriously. Who wants to GM?
posted by cortex at 3:15 PM on May 4, 2006
TBH, I really think that the site has been over-moderated recently. There have been some threads that are *still* ranked up there in the "best answers" page that have disapparated themselves off of the "Ask" index.
For instance, This thread, and in particular, This comment by Grumblebee are great. But they're not on the front page, and unless you knew it was there you wouldn't know to look for it. I'm not happy about that. I'm not sure what it smacks of. The conversation seemed to be very on-topic and decent for a thread that deals with rape, of all things.
posted by SpecialK at 3:20 PM on May 4, 2006
For instance, This thread, and in particular, This comment by Grumblebee are great. But they're not on the front page, and unless you knew it was there you wouldn't know to look for it. I'm not happy about that. I'm not sure what it smacks of. The conversation seemed to be very on-topic and decent for a thread that deals with rape, of all things.
posted by SpecialK at 3:20 PM on May 4, 2006
Random drawing, perhaps. Highest bidder, no way. The last thing we need is some rich but misguided asshole being "the Decider."
posted by crunchland at 3:27 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by crunchland at 3:27 PM on May 4, 2006
...you need to spend a few moments dwelling in the septic tank of internet forums. You'll come crawling back, gasping for breath.
I'm ony halfway down the thread and prostyle has already won.
posted by blag at 3:53 PM on May 4, 2006
I'm ony halfway down the thread and prostyle has already won.
posted by blag at 3:53 PM on May 4, 2006
The last thing we need is some rich but misguided asshole being "the Decider."
Just thought that was worth repeating.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:53 PM on May 4, 2006
Just thought that was worth repeating.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:53 PM on May 4, 2006
I really think that the site has been over-moderated recently.
The conversation seemed to be very on-topic and decent for a thread that deals with rape, of all things.
You know what is ironic about those two statements, SpecialK? Comments in that thread were deleted to keep it civil.
Even still, the originally posted question is a meandering mess that barely resembles a question and it followed a few huge threads on MetaFilter about the Duke rape case. It really felt like some new user wanted to continue having a conversation about rape with a bunch of hypotheticals and a poll for everyone to answer.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:55 PM on May 4, 2006
The conversation seemed to be very on-topic and decent for a thread that deals with rape, of all things.
You know what is ironic about those two statements, SpecialK? Comments in that thread were deleted to keep it civil.
Even still, the originally posted question is a meandering mess that barely resembles a question and it followed a few huge threads on MetaFilter about the Duke rape case. It really felt like some new user wanted to continue having a conversation about rape with a bunch of hypotheticals and a poll for everyone to answer.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 3:55 PM on May 4, 2006
Yup, still the best comment in the thread. Go have a look at Ask Yahoo or Questionville. Compare them to AskMe or Craigslist. Then come back and tell me if you'd prefer hands-off or community moderated?
posted by blag at 3:59 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by blag at 3:59 PM on May 4, 2006
It feels like this kind of thing is happening with increasing regularity. - reklaw
I suspect that raw # of deletions has increased - along with the raw # of posts & # of comments.
posted by raedyn at 4:03 PM on May 4, 2006
I suspect that raw # of deletions has increased - along with the raw # of posts & # of comments.
posted by raedyn at 4:03 PM on May 4, 2006
But I still think people are more afraid of stuff getting deleted than they used to be.
If that fear leads to them reappraising their FPP/Question/Comment and seeing a way that it could be improved upon, or realizing that it isn't appropriate after all, then good, let them be afraid.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:13 PM on May 4, 2006
If that fear leads to them reappraising their FPP/Question/Comment and seeing a way that it could be improved upon, or realizing that it isn't appropriate after all, then good, let them be afraid.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:13 PM on May 4, 2006
A point worth making: as the site has grown, the fraction of total site activity that any one user can reasonably survey has decreased—and so it's entirely possible for two different users, even of like disposition and attitudes toward moderation, to have to different views of the the site, and accordingly different feelings. - cortex
It's also worth repeating with the "small" tag closed.
Perhaps User A is particularly attracted to the types of threads or comments that are more likely to be deleted, and is more likely to have noticed those threads vs User B. That sort of thing, you know?
posted by raedyn at 4:14 PM on May 4, 2006
It's also worth repeating with the "small" tag closed.
Perhaps User A is particularly attracted to the types of threads or comments that are more likely to be deleted, and is more likely to have noticed those threads vs User B. That sort of thing, you know?
posted by raedyn at 4:14 PM on May 4, 2006
The adle-pated sewing sisters who only want love for all of their bullshit kitten links are over on MoFi
Guh? I prefer MoFi to MeCha, (MeFi Lite! Now With Even More Stuff That Couldn't Pass Muster! And 88% Cliqueier!), myself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:22 PM on May 4, 2006
Guh? I prefer MoFi to MeCha, (MeFi Lite! Now With Even More Stuff That Couldn't Pass Muster! And 88% Cliqueier!), myself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:22 PM on May 4, 2006
" The last thing we need is some rich but misguided asshole being "the Decider.""
I hear that BoingBoing is planning to use WMD on us if we don't attack them first. Also, they caused 9/11.
Just in case we get a Decider.
"Guh? I prefer MoFi to MeCha, (MeFi Lite! Now With Even More Stuff That Couldn't Pass Muster! And 88% Cliqueier!), myself."
I prefer MeFi to MoFi. Since the comment was about MeFi:MoFi, MeCha is academic. I generally like the front page of MoFi (sometimes better than MeTa), but the conversation degenerates too often into cuddlepuddles.
posted by klangklangston at 4:49 PM on May 4, 2006
I hear that BoingBoing is planning to use WMD on us if we don't attack them first. Also, they caused 9/11.
Just in case we get a Decider.
"Guh? I prefer MoFi to MeCha, (MeFi Lite! Now With Even More Stuff That Couldn't Pass Muster! And 88% Cliqueier!), myself."
I prefer MeFi to MoFi. Since the comment was about MeFi:MoFi, MeCha is academic. I generally like the front page of MoFi (sometimes better than MeTa), but the conversation degenerates too often into cuddlepuddles.
posted by klangklangston at 4:49 PM on May 4, 2006
Fetamitler.com is still available if anyone wants to start a bizarro version of MeFi where snarks don't exist and everyone helps each other.
posted by blue_beetle at 4:58 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 4:58 PM on May 4, 2006
bad bye
posted by blue_beetle at 4:59 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 4:59 PM on May 4, 2006
Klang: Fair enough; I just thought it wasn't really accurate to compare MeFi(36 000+ Members) to MoFi(Just under 5000, I think), and got all knee jerky. MeCha's radio thingy is pretty cool too, I must admit.
Oooo! FetidMidler.com is free, too!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:01 PM on May 4, 2006
Oooo! FetidMidler.com is free, too!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:01 PM on May 4, 2006
a bizarro version of MeFi where snarks don't exist and everyone helps each other.
where's the fun then?
posted by matteo at 5:09 PM on May 4, 2006
where's the fun then?
posted by matteo at 5:09 PM on May 4, 2006
reklaw : "Each time I see a thread and think 'that's going to get deleted, shame', it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth."
Personally, I like when offtopic stuff gets deleted. You, apparently, don't. So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate.
posted by Bugbread at 7:08 PM on May 4, 2006
Personally, I like when offtopic stuff gets deleted. You, apparently, don't. So it is with everything: some people go around looking for things to like, and some look for things to hate.
posted by Bugbread at 7:08 PM on May 4, 2006
IIf that fear leads to them reappraising their FPP/Question/Comment and seeing a way that it could be improved upon, or realizing that it isn't appropriate after all, then good, let them be afraid.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:13 PM EST on May 4 [!]
Good point, worth repeating.
posted by marxchivist at 7:08 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:13 PM EST on May 4 [!]
Good point, worth repeating.
posted by marxchivist at 7:08 PM on May 4, 2006
mathowie's patience is pretty impressive to me. I, personally, welcome my new mathowie overlords.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:42 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:42 PM on May 4, 2006
I wonder if wikipedia is as heavily moderated as Metafilter. At least around here, your IP doesn't get banned when your threads get deleted.
posted by crunchland at 10:49 PM on May 4, 2006
posted by crunchland at 10:49 PM on May 4, 2006
What would be really funny is if that guy who runs that el gee eff site traded places with Matt for a day. Or maybe a month. Guaranteed comedy gold.
posted by trondant at 12:38 AM on May 5, 2006
posted by trondant at 12:38 AM on May 5, 2006
I wonder if wikipedia is as heavily moderated as Metafilter.
Well, it depends. Either you drawn in a swampy soup of "consensus", which basically means that the last man standing wins, or you get smitten by the Hand o' WP:OFFICE.
posted by darukaru at 8:06 AM on May 5, 2006
Well, it depends. Either you drawn in a swampy soup of "consensus", which basically means that the last man standing wins, or you get smitten by the Hand o' WP:OFFICE.
posted by darukaru at 8:06 AM on May 5, 2006
drown, even.
I love when people correct themselves like this, because I read it to myself in Snagglepussvoice: "Heavens to Murgatroid... 'drown', eeevun. Exit, stage left!"
posted by gleuschk at 8:36 AM on May 5, 2006
I love when people correct themselves like this, because I read it to myself in Snagglepussvoice: "Heavens to Murgatroid... 'drown', eeevun. Exit, stage left!"
posted by gleuschk at 8:36 AM on May 5, 2006
I actually have a Snagglepuss voice, you heartless bastard!
posted by darukaru at 9:14 AM on May 5, 2006
posted by darukaru at 9:14 AM on May 5, 2006
reklaw writes "Deletion has stopped being just for crap and started being used on stuff that most people think is just fine, or even happpen to like. The problem is that the people who want everything they don't like to be stamped out make a lot more noise than the ones who just want to leave stuff alone."
Just because you say this is true doesn't make it so. I really appreciate how you asked a question, didn't get the answer you were looking for, and still used that as evidence that your position is the right one. Defending the bubble thread is ridiculous. It was a single link to a single decent snapshot in an otherwise non-noteworthy flickr set of 15 photos. It was completely shitty as an FPP ,which, of course, is not to say that it was a shitty thing to look at, somewhere else, like when my step-mother emails me the link at the bottom of one of those chain letters that talk about the meaning of friendship.
Also, I agree with bugbread.
posted by OmieWise at 1:04 PM on May 5, 2006
Just because you say this is true doesn't make it so. I really appreciate how you asked a question, didn't get the answer you were looking for, and still used that as evidence that your position is the right one. Defending the bubble thread is ridiculous. It was a single link to a single decent snapshot in an otherwise non-noteworthy flickr set of 15 photos. It was completely shitty as an FPP ,which, of course, is not to say that it was a shitty thing to look at, somewhere else, like when my step-mother emails me the link at the bottom of one of those chain letters that talk about the meaning of friendship.
Also, I agree with bugbread.
posted by OmieWise at 1:04 PM on May 5, 2006
Thanks, SpecialK. To clarify, the question wasn't intended as hypothetical in any way. In retrospect, I can see that brevity, and phrasing it from a personal perspective ("I want to do this with people in my own life. How?"), rather than that of a collective "we", would have made its non-hypothetical nature unmistakeable. It was an instructive lesson in how not to pose an AskMe question.
/shrugs
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 7:50 AM on May 8, 2006
/shrugs
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 7:50 AM on May 8, 2006
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posted by reklaw at 12:40 PM on May 4, 2006